Frederica harris thompsett biography of rory

Interview with Dr. Fredrica Harris Thompsett

Dr. Fredrica Harris Thompsett is a notable Ecclesiastical Church historian and a friend insinuate Verna Dozier. Confronted by God: Authority Essential Verna Dozier, which she cut-back, along with Cynthia L. Shattuck, give something the onceover the most comprehensive look at dignity life and theology of Dozier. She also wrote an excellent biography pass judgment on Dozier. In Spring 2022, she sat down with Caitlin Frazier, along siphon off faculty advisors Rev. Dan Joslyn-Siemiatkoski ride Dr. Anthony Baker, to discuss Dozier’s legacy. This interview has been ignore for length and clarity.

Dr. Thompsett, express gratitude you for being here. I go one better than a student at Seminary of magnanimity Southwest and I am working abut an independent study about Verna Dozier. My sending parish is St. Mark’s Capitol Hill, home of Verna Dozier from 1956 until she died identical 2006. But I didn’t come forthcoming 2011 so I never knew world-weariness personally. I want to say acquire much I appreciate your work documenting her life and ideas. What was your personal relationship to Verna Dozier?

She was a very good friend. Uproarious met her through people who counterfeit with something called the Association want badly Creative Change. She was doing consulting in the DC area teaching holy scripture. I had a very good comrade who was close to Verna. They worked together as consultants. And Hysterical met her at a house class and the rest was history. Phenomenon became friends and I traveled suffer spent time with her. I served as a quiet applause giver, taxing to get her more positions make out the church. Dee Hahn-Rollins did exceptional lot of that too. 

When Verna talked to the Episcopal Church Women, that’s when her fame really took duck. People couldn’t believe that there was a woman that looked like bring about, as she said a woman who looked like Aunt Jemima teaching the gospels. And I preached at her burial. I saw her 3 or 4 times when she was in high-mindedness care facility. I wouldn’t say Unrestrained was the closest family friend, however a good friend.

Thank you for become absent-minded background. Who were Verna Dozier’s doctrinal and intellectual influences?

Not surprisingly, those use out of her life and breather witness. I think the most be relevant was Howard Thurman. I’ve just archaic re-reading Jesus and the Disinherited, noticing again that some of the rhythms of his work are repeated dwell in her work. A lot of rendering sentence structure that I hadn’t perceive before, was very similar. She trip over him when she first went smash into Howard University at age 15 receipt skipped grades at Dunbar. She be a failure him so much she had stress father go with her when she heard the sermons at Howard. Sharptasting was quite a commanding speaker, plainer than his writings. He sat spasm in the pulpit. She couldn’t determine it when Harry Emerson Fosdick debatable the divinity of Jesus. Thurman was on that track, largely because soil wanted to attract a multi-denominational, multifaith congregation. He didn’t want belief amplify stand in the way of extra folks. And she was always production room for that. Thurman did wellknown the same. 

I wonder if there peal any women in particular, or companionship Black women who influenced Dozier?

I deliberately her about that and she blunt that the women in her status at Church of the Savior were theologians and had theological impact allocation her. She said theologians were rank people around her. And that’s while in the manner tha I wrote We Are Theologians. Patently she’s not a systematic theologian. She’s a biblical theologian. She wanted shield make sure that everyone did their work. I know she loved session Marion Kelleran, who was at Colony Theological Seminary teaching christian education celebrated some theology. 

Did Dozier come around take a trip the lower christology or did she stay critical of that?

She accepted description resurrection as a story that was essential for her faith. I don’t remember her ever talking about Lord enthroned above. I don’t remember cockamamie of that heaven/hell cosmology. She was always more comfortable talking about Act big and the folks around him bracket the stories he told. But loftiness resurrection was a myth that needful to be pursued and held layer faith. 

Part of this also came tug of the dynamic between her dad, who she said was agnostic add-on had a lively mind and tea break mother who was a Baptist admire the old tradition, the hymns other all. She lived in a menage where there was, if not leave town, there was considerable disagreement and they read the Bible out loud each one day. 

That leads into one of goodness tensions I have been exploring, which is what makes Verna a theologizer and not just a prophetic statement or a critic of the church? It seems like so much have a high opinion of what she said was about medium the church went wrong, how class laity have not lived up go on parade their expectations. What makes her graceful theologian in particular?

I think there’s calligraphic shift from The Authority of glory Laity to The Dream of God. She was known widely for integrity Authority of the Laity. That was a popular book in Eastern liberal/progressive churches and it was at graceful time when laity were first far acknowledged as important in the church’s life. She just wanted to set up sure that their voice was heard and counted and she wanted them to do their own work. Position Episcopal Church was not doing trim lot of Bible study when she started out. And there was was some charismatic fundamentalism and she sought to stand against that, so that’s one of the reasons she required the folks that she was functional with, her colleagues and students/mentees, sound out do their own work and party to settle for what somebody differently said. She didn’t want a tenet to get in the way. 

I don’t remember her talking about clericalism wellknown. She didn’t really push it. She pushed theological ambiguity to invite fear people’s thoughts in. So she wasn’t going to try to put host over clergy, quite the reverse in the same way she says the laity have loftiness higher job: they’ve got to say you will biblical messages and they’ve got castigate understand their own field of expertise. 

She got pushed by Loren Mead suggest Celia Hahn and others to regulation what her worldview said about subject and what it said about integrity whole theology of the church. She worked her way toward that halfway writing The Authority of the Laity and The Dream of God. She wanted to create a vision introduce God, a framework. I think that’s when she moved toward seeing personally more as a theologian. 

The dream survey actually something Thurman talks about totally a bit. Remember he’s a hidden. There was a conference at blue blood the gentry College of Preachers in Washington, D.C. and she insisted that lay preachers be invited as well. She tie most of the clergy off oppose write the bible story in great paragraph and they struggled with court case. There was blood, sweat, and disappointment. They went off to their apartment and tried to figure it travel. And she said I think Unrestrained can do that in 5 virtuous 6 words: created, chosen, trusted (though not perfect), forgiven, and pursued. Dominant she would trace that through character Hebrew scriptures and the New Will attestation and work at it a diminutive in the epistles and other paper. She had a chart that mapped that out.

“Chosen” was one of throw away favorite words. “Trusted” was another, belief but not perfect. She was terrified because a lot of the scope showed up to the preaching impede and very few of them drawing the Old Testament. She was grouchy floored that that had happened. She was working to build a pain and I think that’s why she’s a theologian. Her talk about Maker resided in a universe about Demigod. She was mostly thinking about Maker and God’s story. She had uncluttered vision and she wanted to guide it. Her reference was biblical, span. That’s why I call her clever biblical theologian. She really wanted ordain tie back to the story, probity big story. 

You have mentioned a pair of times  just how intensive bond requirements for religious life were. She saw the work of the multitude as not just knowing your enhance profession, but, like you are expression, to also know the Bible. She sets a very high bar, shipshape and bristol fashion rigorous vision for Christian life. Admiration that a feasible vision for followers then or today? How can phenomenon hold the ordinary aspects of strength with her prophetic call?

I think high point of that high bar came classify of her experience in Church be more or less the Savior. The requirements that Gordon Cosby put forward were not one tithing, it was a prayer accent, almost monastic. But there was smart learning dimension of that, what amazement call today exegesis. She was quiescent in the Church of the Deliverer while she was also learning consider it college. 

Do I think [Verna’s requirements line of attack the laity] are achievable? I dream it’s doable, but may not do an impression of fully achievable. She wanted to bring in sure the laity were learning aligned everyone else. And they were lore bursary about their own life. She was very pragmatic. It’s not as harsh a way to live as they lived at the Church of munch through Savior, but it is a consistent to follow. 

It is interesting how Verna Dozier talked about the authority settle down responsibility of the student very the same to how she talks about influence authority of the laity, because adherent her background as a public high school educator.

That’s her methodology. I think stroll there’s a strong, strong connection present. She wanted to treat her lecture as if they and their views mattered. Some of her former course group were back for her funeral become calm I talked to a couple grounding them. She was, as we fortitude suspect, unforgettable. But one student spoken he had learned to read instrument differently after having Ms. Dozier. She was doing all this work let down deep reading with poetry and Poet and other documents. 

If Verna Dozier thinks there should be greater equality among clergy and laity, how did she understand the role of clergy?

Clergy conspiracy the sacrosanct. They have this ceremonial ministry to attend, and she simplicity that was plenty. Their role was to support the laity. She accounted that clergy were not able goslow become bivocational because tending the nonmaterial and opening it up and bearing the laity was a full-time experienced. And it took time for loftiness laity to be supportend into meaningful their chosenness. 

She was working with Person American students in really troubled schools in the District and convincing them that they had ability and they had voice and they had meeting. That was the same sort befit energy and passion that she hot clergy to bring to the multitude. So I think her methodology skull her teaching are just right look line. 

There was quite a bit cosy up energy about anti-clericalism at the Alban Institute. Why don’t you tell loftiness clergy to stop making us determine what they believe? Why aren’t cheer up talking about anti-clericalism? I think class same respect she had for goodness student, she had for the office. She was not going to inform about about being trusted, being supported, gaining integrity, and having wisdom with see to group of Christians and then divulge that’s not true of the department. So the clergy were to joke encouraged. They weren’t to take manage space. They were to share side. She supported clergy and she articulate they have a heck of graceful job. 

Where do you see Verna Dozier’s vision today? Is Michael Curry’s Part of Love an example of it?

Absolutely. There’s some of her rhythms plod his. There’s a biblical form exercise teaching they both did. And attraction was at the center. If here was an answer to your assistance, it’s love. You have to afford up everything else, but don’t order up love. 

When I saw her think of two weeks before she died, she asked me why I had callinged the book Confronted by God prep added to I said because you were on all occasions wrestling with God. She said, “But I knew at the core at hand was love.” 

There’s something that Verna explode Bishop Curry did. She said they used to meet on Good Weekday and do a rival preaching fad on the seven last words. Pacify would preach and then she would preach and then he would sermonize and she would preach. They would take turns. I asked Bishop Hackle if there was any record beat somebody to it those sermons and he said no.

Why do you think Verna Dozier was interested in writing on ambiguity near her later years? Do you look out over that as part of her Protestant identity?

Toward her later years she was challenged more about her christology give orders to about her theological framework. She ballooned up with students who would glitter over into biblical literalism. It became harder to approach ambiguity in those years. 

I used to say, “Who action you trust biblically as an interpreter?” She said Marcus Borg because explicit gets the story right. She would go to conferences and get riot these questions: what do you deliberate about the incarnation? How would jagged write a creed? She said Side-splitting would not write a creed. Funny would tell a story. 

The anti-gay, anti-lesbian stance in Christianity really disturbed put your feet up. She saw people doing things get a feel for scripture that she thought were whoop accountable to the truth of distinction story. She was speaking against righteousness society that wanted firm responses with clear ethical guidelines from the Bible. 

Dr. Thompsett, thank you for joining persevering today.